Author Topic: "Cave Men" ....  (Read 43562 times)

icebear

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"Cave Men" ....
« on: December 22, 2013, 10:18:56 PM »
Main site for Cosmos in Collision: 
http://www.cosmosincollision.com

Related Videos:
http://cosmosincollision.com/forum/index.php?topic=83.0

Ganymede Hypothesis group on FaceBook:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/514483018695199/

An email to a friend:

Hi,

You'd asked about "cave men"...

There are generally two kinds of things which you might call 'cave people', i.e. Cro Magnon humans which were modern people who lived prior to Adam and Eve, and hominids (Neanderthals and the various flavors of Homo-Erectus etc.), which were not human and amounted to a fourth category (along with monkeys, apes, and humans) of creatures which resembled humans in some fashion. 

There is no completely good word for the people who lived prior to Adam:

  • The term "Pre-Adamite" is now politically incorrect since it was being used in racist tracts in the late 1800s and early 1900s.
  • The term "Cro Magnon" has fallen into disuse because scientists could never agree as to what groups to include.
  • The terms 'Anatomically Modern Human' or 'Early Modern Human' and the acronyms AMH and EMH are problematical since scientists tend to lump gracile (Skhul/Qafzeh) hominids into that category, which strikes me as totally wrong.

Troy and I use the term Cro Magnon to indicate all people living prior to Adam.  Standard theories have Cro Magnon man arising something like 45,000 years ago.  Remnant Cro Magnons likely account for the "non people" who Cain was worried about killing him when, supposedly, he, Adam, and Eve were the only three humans on the planet (Genesis 4:14).  Relatively pure Cro Magnon descendants today include the Spanish Basque, Japanese Ainu, native Australians, the people of the Canary islands, some Northern European groups, probably most American Indians, and a few others.

Cosmos in Collision includes a claim that there are two basic human groups on the planet, i.e. Cro Magnon descendants, and descendants of the familiar antediluvian people of the Bible including Indo European, Semitic, and Hamitic groups.  The difference has nothing to do with race or color since both groups are capable of producing any color or feature you'd ever see in humans.  The difference was in the original cultures and technologies, the most major such difference being the question of stone tools.  There was never any sort of a stone age amongst the people of Genesis.

The following is a reply I posted to an email list thread involving Svante Paabo and the Max Planck's latest claims about Neanderthal findings, which you might find interesting:

================================================================


There is good reason to believe that very little of what we read about human origins these days is believable.

There is a general belief that humans evolved from hominids.  Nonetheless Neanderthal DNA has been shown to be roughly halfway between ours and that of a chimpanzee, neatly eliminating the Neanderthal as a plausible human ancestor.  Most scholars who believe in evolution have taken to claiming that we and the Neanderthal are "cousins", i.e. that we had a common ancestor, usually taken to be Heidelbergensis, around 500,000 years back.  The obvious problem is that "too genetically remote to be ancestral to" is a transitive relationship;  that's like saying that foxes could not be descended from wolves due to the genetic gap and must, therefore, be descended directly from fish.

Let's consider what we actually know about both humans and hominids, (Cro Magnon) humans first.

One thing scholars all agree on is that whatever caused Cro Magnon people to appear on this planet when they did was not gradual. Danny Vendramini ("Them and Us") notes:

Quote
“The speed of the Upper Palaeolithic revolution in the Levant was also breathtaking. Anthropologists Ofer Bar-Yosef and Bernard Vandermeersch:
Quote
“Between 40,000 and 45,000 years ago the material culture of western Eurasia changed more than it had during the previous million years. This efflorescence of technological and artistic creativity signifies the emergence of the first culture that observers today would recognise as distinctly human, marked as it was by unceasing invention and variety. During that brief period of 5,000 or so years, the stone tool kit, unchanged in its essential form for ages, suddenly began to differentiate wildly from century to century and from region to region. Why it happened and why it happened when it did constitute two of the greatest outstanding problems in paleoanthropology.”

Likewise Dwardu Cardona ("Flare Star"):

Quote
"Where and how the Cro-Magnons first arose remains unknown. Their appearance, however, coincided with the most bitter phase of the ice age. There is, however, no doubt that they were more advanced, more sophisticated, than the Neanderthals with whom they shared the land. Living in larger and more organized groups than had earlier humans, Cro Magnon peoples spread out until they populated most of the world. Their tools, made of bone, stone, and even wood, were carved into harpoons, awls, and fish hooks. They were presumably able hunters although, as with the Neanderthals, they would also have foraged to gather edible plants, roots, and wild vegetables. The only problem here is that, as far as can be told, the Cro Magnons seem to have arrived on the scene without leaving a single trace of their evolutionary ancestors. Ian Tattersall observed:
Quote
'When the first Cro Magnons arrived in Europe some 40,000 years ago, they evidently brought with them more or less the entire panoply of behaviors that distinguishes modern humans from every other species that has ever existed.'"

There is also a question of artwork, i.e. going from hominids with no artistic capabilities whatsoever to the Cro Magnon Sistine Chapel at Lascaux, with no evidence to be found in the world of any sort of a run-up to that.  That obviously is not compatible with the idea of humans evolving from apes and/or hominids.


What that IS compatible with is the idea that monkeys, apes, and hominids had BEEN here for some time, and then humans CAME here, which is the basic thesis of Cosmos in Collision ( www.cosmosincollision.com ).

The idea of humans evolving from hominids is not tenable.  For any hominid to have evolved into humans, that hominid would have to have:
  • Lost his fur while ice ages were going on.
  • Lost almost all of his night vision in an age in which night was the only time of day that there was.  Not to mention that this was while living amongst large predators which COULD see in the dark...
  • Lost almost all of his sense of smell while trying to survive as a land prey animal.

And if the first two items weren't instantly fatal, that third one assuredly would have been.

Let's consider what we know about Neanderthals:
  • Their DNA was roughly halfway between ours and that of a chimpanzee.
  • Their footprints were more ape-like than human (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_anatomy)
  • Their rib cages were conical as are those of apes (to make way for the huge upper body musculature of primates);  ours are cylindrical.
  • Their hips were set much wider than ours and, likewise their bone structure was much heavier than ours.
  • They were the absolute apex predator of the European ice age and nobody has ever found a Neanderthal needle.  Creatures with a 6" ice-age fur coat don't NEED needles.
  • Their skulls were a very good match for an ape's profile (Vendramini) and a bad match for one of ours.
  • They were cannibalistic and basically viewed the living world as neatly divided into two categories, i.e. their own family group, and meat.  Paabo's claim that recent specimens show evidence of inbreeding are what you'd expect given that the greatest danger to Neanderthals was almost certainly other Neanderthal families.

Rob Gargett ("Subversive Archaeologist") notes that even if you try to draw a humanized Neanderthal with the eyes and nose as laarge as bones indicate they'd have to be, what you end up with is outlandish:

(http://www.thesubversivearchaeologist.com)

Danny Vendramini notes that if you try to draw George Clooney with Neanderthal facial proportions (and a normal-sized nose), you might end up with this:

(www.themandus.org)

And Gargett notes that if you place the skulls of a human, a Neanderthal, and a lion together, the two which have anything in common are the Neanderthal and the lion.

(http://www.thesubversivearchaeologist.com)

You would expect behavior to correspond to morphology, and it does.  In the news recently:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cannibal-neanderthal-gang-in-northern-spain-ate-12-of-their-neighbours-raw-scientists-say-8960800.html

Quote
According to reports in the Sunday Times, Carles Lalueza-Fox of the Institute of Evolutionary Biology in Barcelona told the Society the slaughtered group included three children aged from two to nine, three teenagers and six adults.
“They appear to have been killed and eaten, with their bones and skulls split open to extract the marrow, tongue and brains,” he said.
“All had been butchered. It must have been a big feast.”

From the considerations noted, Troy McLachlan and I believe that the only (very minor) problems with Vendramini's reconstructions are the fur color and the thing about slit eyes;  we don't believe that Neanderthals ever saw anything which we'd call daylight. 

This then is what Neanderthals actually looked like( www.themandus.org ):

(www.themandus.org)

With fur removed:

(www.themandus.org)

Moreover, Heidelbergensis skulls indicate that the supposed "Common Ancestor" would probably look as scary to a Neanderthal as the Neanderthal looks to us:

(www.worldmuseumofman.org)

Now, Paabo actually is an expert at genetics, but the idea that understanding Neanderthal genetics makes you any sort of an expert in the behavior, history, or culture of Neanderthals is clearly wrong.

I've mentioned the claim that humans and Neanderthals had a common ancestor.  There is also a claim that, because some humans have a certain small number of genes in common with Neanderthals, that humans and Neanderthals must have interbred.  That amounts to thinking that a Neanderthal male could/would rape a woman and, rather than cooking and eating her afterwards as usual, somehow or other keep her alive long enough to bear a cross-species child, raise that child to reproductive age, and have him/her breed back into human populations without anybody catching on...

In real life:
  • Neanderthal females would kill that woman the first time her new owner left her alone for ten minutes. 
  • The woman wouldn't fare any better than the subjects of the commie attempts to breed humans and apes into super workers in the 1930s.
  • Humans would notice the child was different (really different...)
  • And humans would kill that child and everybody else like him as part of the same program which killed out the Neanderthal. They would not need DNA tests to determine who to kill for that sort of reason, it would be exceedingly obvious.

The Neanderthal died out in a wave going from East to West as he encountered Cro Magnon humans with the last Neanderthal stand in Europe being in Southern Spain.  There is just no way that humans who were conducting such a total genocide war would have tolerated half-breeds in their own midst.  That is, even assuming that such cross-breeding was possible.

The one other shot somebody might take at a hominid ==> human evolution claim would be to claim, as does Vendramini, that Cro Magnon man arose from gracile (Skhul/Qafzeh) hominids.  Nonetheless, from Shreve's "Neandeerthal Peace", we note:

Quote
"Here in the Levant, however, the arrival of anatomically modern humans was marked by no fancy new tools, not to mention no painted caves, beaded necklaces, or other evidence of exploding Cro-Magnon couture. In this part of the world, how modern a hominid looked in its body said nothing about how modernly it behaved.

You can't expect anybody to believe that Cro Magnon man with his grand art and his advanced tools and weapons arose in very little time from something like that.  The SQ hominids were basically just other hominids which had developed a bit more in the way of morphological similarity to modern humans than usual.
 
You would probably find a few of the same low-level C language math functions in both banking software and rocket telemetry software;  That does not mean that NASA's software is all hacked from that of J.P. Morgan.  Likewise a few common genes in both humans and Neanderthals most likely indicates an original designer using a few of the same low-level genetic parts for dissimilar projects.  Basically, some reasonable explanation will be found sooner or later, but cross-breeding between humans and hominids is not a reasonable explanation.

Again, all evidence points to the reality that humans and hominids not only are not related other than by similar design, they don't even come from the same worlds.


« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 10:23:01 PM by icebear »

icebear

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2013, 08:03:17 PM »

Pituxalina

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2014, 10:23:59 PM »
  From what Vendramini said, the Neanderthals could make fires, windbreaks and good stone tools as well as flint-tipped spears.  Wouldn't that kind of tech need some form of language to impart to the younger generation?  I think that's too complicated even for advanced, upright chimps like the Neanderthals. 
  Yes,  chimpanzee females can make spears just by watching each other, but they are small, made by chewing on the ends of small branches and are not fire hardened, tipped with stone and are only used to spear bush-babies/galagos inside of holes.

icebear

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2014, 05:07:38 AM »
  From what Vendramini said, the Neanderthals could make fires, windbreaks and good stone tools as well as flint-tipped spears.  Wouldn't that kind of tech need some form of language to impart to the younger generation?

My guess would be that Neanderthals, like apes, lacked the voluntary control over breathing which permits the sort of articulated verbal speech we use now.  I'd also guess that this wasn't any sort of a major problem for them:

http://bearfabrique.org/History/babel.html

How have you been, I'd not heard from you for a while?


cslavin

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2014, 03:40:12 AM »

I have been wondering, what other factors contributed to the possible "genocidial" eradication of Neanderthals?

A few things have come to mind that may or may not help stimulate ideas or add to the current story-

-were caves in wide use as shelter at a time when darkness reigned?

If so, what made caves ideal? Were caves premium safe space for large groups?

What were the dangers it afforded security from?

Are caves really habitable? Or are they temporary shelters?

With the appearance (splash saltation?) of humans in a  new place; with no real knowledge, yet, of the terrain they freshly landed in and no idea where to find suitable habitation in other locals; maybe out of desperation, to survive in a foreign land, "took" the choice spots occupied by Neanderthal(s); that they (humans) might of had immediate contact with Neanderthal; scouted these groups of Neanderthals initially to discern basic needs (food, shelter, .,.); perhaps harsh environs meant these cave dwelling groups were embedded and would not just be chased off; a genocidial affront/war was the response or planned?

Was this affront organized on a large scale by all the new arrivals or carried out by several groups independently?

Was solar storming pervasive or regular enough that certain species sought the safety of deep caves?

Could the drive to wipe out Neanderthal been motivated by the fact Neanderthals ranged in a territory that facilitated safety in periods of meteor showers and other cosmic/terrestrial perturbations and of necessity Cromagon wrested this territory from its original inhabitants?

Would spending time in these caves foster exploration of the caves and to entertain themselves with stories and accompanied by art?

Last, simply, could the introduction of such copious amounts and diverse biomass from one planet to the next do something like Columbus and the spread of infectious diseases by contact?

I realize some of these questions are not really answerable but pondered what such a senario might look like.

icebear

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2014, 06:43:46 PM »

Hi,

You'd asked several questions;  I might have bits and pieces of answers to a few of them....



-were caves in wide use as shelter at a time when darkness reigned?

If so, what made caves ideal? Were caves premium safe space for large groups?

What were the dangers it afforded security from?

Are caves really habitable? Or are they temporary shelters?

Caves would have worked as shelter both from cosmic violence and the extreme cold of the European ice age.  Gunnar Heinsohn notes that some caves appeared to have been inhabited by Homo Erectus and then Neanderthals and Humans and that the time frames normally given out can be shown to be in error i.e. that standard theories claim tens of thousands of years for stratigraphical layers for which no real evidence demands anything more than a few decades:
http://www.bearfabrique.org/Catastrophism/wiealt.html


Quote
With the appearance (splash saltation?) of humans in a  new place; with no real knowledge, yet, of the terrain they freshly landed in and no idea where to find suitable habitation in other locals; maybe out of desperation, to survive in a foreign land, "took" the choice spots occupied by Neanderthal(s); that they (humans) might of had immediate contact with Neanderthal; scouted these groups of Neanderthals initially to discern basic needs (food, shelter, .,.); perhaps harsh environs meant these cave dwelling groups were embedded and would not just be chased off; a genocidal affront/war was the response or planned?

Was this affront organized on a large scale by all the new arrivals or carried out by several groups independently?

Troy and I note splash saltation as one possible way for humans to have gotten from Jupiter's moon system to this planet.  There are other possibilities and you'd need a time machine to be certain of anything.

As the book notes, Neanderthals lived in family groups and that was their world;  they were cannibalistic and apparently viewed the living world as neatly divided into two categories i.e. their own family group, and meat.  That tells me that a Cro Magnon war party needed to number something like twice the size of the largest Neanderthal group they figured to ever encounter, probably around 50 or thereabouts and possibly a few more if they had to bring their own food supply and/or whatever they viewed as logistics.  The fact that there is evidence of humans eating Neanderthals says that the idea of living off the land on such forays at least occurred to them. 

Other than for not involving tens of thousands of men or any such, I would assume that these things were planned.  They depopulated Europe of Neanderthals and I don't picture one or two groups of footloose humans doing that.  For somebody thinking in terms of modern wars the idea of fifty-man army groups seems a little bit strange but, then, Genthis Khan's army often traveled in groups of ten which, in fact, facilitated its ability to live off the land.  Granted Mongol armies traveling with several horses per man could reform into large groups very quickly, the Cro Magnon on foot didn't NEED to be able to do that, again those groups were very likely never facing more than one Neanderthal family at one time.


Quote
Was solar storming pervasive or regular enough that certain species sought the safety of deep caves?

Possibly.  Troy notes that dwarf stars such as Earth lived under in those days are less stable than a main sequence star like our Sun and occasionally flare.  At those times, a cave is a much better idea than a simple windbreak.

Quote
Could the drive to wipe out Neanderthal been motivated by the fact Neanderthals ranged in a territory that facilitated safety in periods of meteor showers and other cosmic/terrestrial perturbations and of necessity Cromagon wrested this territory from its original inhabitants?

I am assuming that the war against Neanderthals arose from Neanderthals killing and eating humans.  The Red Ice interview mentions this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p10PiJPEq4

Quote
Would spending time in these caves foster exploration of the caves and to entertain themselves with stories and accompanied by art?

Last, simply, could the introduction of such copious amounts and diverse biomass from one planet to the next do something like Columbus and the spread of infectious diseases by contact?

I realize some of these questions are not really answerable but pondered what such a scenario might look like.

Best I could do with that would be guess work...  Troy mentions that it is remarkable that they ever got enough light to paint by into those caves and you have to at least entertain the thought that they might have had electric lights.  There is also the possibility that some of the animal paintings may have served some sort of a paranormal/Jaynsian purpose.

I'd be guessing as to disease organisms from Jupiter's moon system, but I like to think that humans were protected there.  The book notes that an original human home world would had to have been safe both from cosmic radiation and from sea monsters and predators, and I'd like to think it may have been safe from pathogens as well.





cslavin

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2014, 05:24:50 AM »

Thank you for taking the time to consider all the questions and providing links.

Could make a remarkable documentary if time travel was possible,  lol.

How terrifying and exciting a journey. To be electromagnetically hosed off one world to the next?

As an artist the imagery supplied by the ideas of the EU model and the contributions made by Troy and Ted is overwhelming. It feels incredible to be inspired by such interdisciplinary work.

This has lead me to begin outlining an illustrated narrative of planetary history that leads to interplanetary history...

Thanks again!

icebear

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2014, 05:46:26 AM »
As an artist the imagery supplied by the ideas of the EU model and the contributions made by Troy and Ted is overwhelming. It feels incredible to be inspired by such interdisciplinary work.

This has lead me to begin outlining an illustrated narrative of planetary history that leads to interplanetary history...

Thanks again!

Thanks!  We feel we've achieved a serious breakthrough in understanding human origins but it's getting off to a slow start.  Anything you could do to spread the word about this forum would be appreciated.

Batterytrain

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2014, 02:00:57 AM »
Interesting, if you could, could you please make a post about the list of books that you have and recommend to readers to study this material more in depth? I know you regularly put references in articles and books but a complete list would be greatly appreciated.

icebear

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2014, 12:02:43 PM »
Hi, and sorry for being a bit slow here, taxes and an upcoming conference...  A complete list would be difficult, but the following little reading list would be helpful for most:

"Worlds in Collision", Immanuel Velikovsky.
"Origin of Consciousness", Julian Jaynes
http://saturndeathcult.com, Troy McLachlan
Dwardu Cardona's books (Flare Star, God Star, Primordial Star)
"Them and Us", Danny Vendramini
The King James Bible
"The Statesman", Plato (Pre-flood world and conditions)
"Aquatic Ape" and "Scars of Evolution", Elaine Morgan
"Paradise", Richard Heinberg

That should do for starters at least.




Batterytrain

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2014, 02:54:06 PM »
I was looking through goodreads.com, and you can look up extensive lists of books there or through other people's profiles or even mention books in lists. If you are going to create a list of books to read as additional resources and reading anytime soon, I would be pretty nice and helpful if you could create one like the ones there.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 03:03:01 PM by Batterytrain »

icebear

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2014, 11:04:14 PM »
I was looking through goodreads.com, and you can look up extensive lists of books there or through other people's profiles or even mention books in lists. If you are going to create a list of books to read as additional resources and reading anytime soon, I would be pretty nice and helpful if you could create one like the ones there.

I'll take a look when time allows.  The Thunderbolts conference starts Thursday and I'm on the road tomorrow.

Batterytrain

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2014, 02:14:04 AM »
How did the conference go?

Anyway, I was looking for books on planetary mythology of civilizations in the past, what books should I start with besides the books you recommended to me before about your references?

icebear

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2014, 05:39:10 AM »
How did the conference go?

Anyway, I was looking for books on planetary mythology of civilizations in the past, what books should I start with besides the books you recommended to me before about your references?

The conference was beyond fabulous and I've created a new forum section specifically for threads related to the conference;  this is new, I'd wanted to keep the forum to one section as long as possible.

Aside from Items I'd mentioned, you might want to check links on thunderbolts.info and there is also the question of Michael Armstrong and his bookstore which is connected to thunderbolts:

https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/resources/
http://www.mikamar.biz

The new section of this forum:
http://cosmosincollision.com/forum/index.php?board=4.0

More along those kinds of lines in the near future.  David Talbott and the people involved in Thunderbolts are good people.  But because of the nature of their business model and their agenda, there are subjects which are tabu on the thunderbolts forum, particularly questions involving Mars.  This forum has no such limitations.  I'd advise watching both forums.

Batterytrain

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Re: "Cave Men" ....
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2014, 02:59:44 AM »
Is there anymore books you can recommend besides the website? I have bookmarked that list that you gave me, I'm trying to look for more non-mainstream and extensive resources, preferredly books, than I would appreciate it very much.